Old Goat has nailed it. The book (the second in a series) he refers to is by far the most comprehensive and best documented account of the history of Russell and the Bible Students. In an attempt to vilify Russell, too many make inaccurate statements, passing on rumors as facts. This only gives the opposition the powder they need. BTW, Russell was never an adventist.
stirred but not shaken
JoinedPosts by stirred but not shaken
-
18
Charles Taze Russell
by thedog1 ini think i read somewhere, here or maybe on another forum, that somebody claimed that c.t.
russell stood on the brooklyn bridge with some others, all in white robes, in 1878, waiting for the rapture.
any truth in that?.
-
-
-
14
Dating the writing of a Bible book
by stirred but not shaken inwhile doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.
society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.
the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
kaik,
There's certainly more than a few theories as to the identity of Babylon the Great. At least a couple of the commentators that I've read have suggested that it is none other than Jerusalem. It seems to be used cryptically. Much like when in Rev. 11:8 says "in a spiritual sense called Sodom" and later in that verse "in a spiritual sense called...Egypt". The only city likened to Sodom in the Bible is Jerusalem. (Deut. 29:22-29; Isa. 1:10;Isa. 3:9; Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:46). Rev. 11:8 continues, "the great city...where their Lord was also impaled". Luke 13:33 states: "Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the following day, because it is not admissible for a prophet to be destroyed outside of Jerusalem."
There are quite a few more biblical references that indicate or suggest that it would be Jerusalem. Getting a historical background on Sodom and Egypt and their dealings with Jerusalem seem to fit. Many prefer to say that it was Rome, but there's a good case for it being Jerusalem. This is a really abreviated rendering, but there's quite a bit more to add. Food for thought. It sure beats the heck out of the "worldwide empire of false religion", shortly to be destroyed by the UN.
-
14
Dating the writing of a Bible book
by stirred but not shaken inwhile doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.
society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.
the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
Phizzy,
My purpose for initiating the post, was to point out that there is no book in the christian scriptures that comments on the destruction of Jerusalem post 70 CE. If, as you suggest, they are all later writings, should we not expect some comment on that event? Besides the vast wealth that was to be found in Jerusalem, Herod's temple was a masterpiece of architecture and viewed by many surrounding nations as a landmark. Other than writers like Josephus, there is nothing to be found in the scriptures.
I will still investigate the scholars that suggest the later writing you refer to. I'm not sure where to start, but I'll get around to it eventually.
-
14
Dating the writing of a Bible book
by stirred but not shaken inwhile doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.
society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.
the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
Thanks Ann. Phizzy, I'll look that up. I have some of the "old" standard bible dictionaries, concordances and commentaries, like Clark's, Young's, Strong's, Halley, Douglas, Unger and others. But if I recall they will hold to 96-98 with a few exceptions in their notes of a possible earlier writing.
-
14
Dating the writing of a Bible book
by stirred but not shaken inwhile doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.
society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.
the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
OT,
When I first started on my search about 2006, I read books from scholars who wrote in the mid to later 1800s. Several have been quoted in WT literature (for other reasons). A lot of them held to an earlier writing of Revelation. Including Westcott & Hort if I remember correctly. I was completely unaware that there could be an alternative date for that book. While visiting the internet on the subject of 607, I saw that book by Jonnson advertised. At the time I was still suspicious of books not sponsored by the WT and found on sites known to be anti witnesses. So what I had learned came from, in several cases, sources that pre-dated the WT Society.
Since then I have come to know more about Jonnson's work, and have read sections from other sources. Many from this forum. There are several JWs who have degrees in Hebrew studies, etc. and I've read some of their work. I will likely get a copy of "Gentile Times..." some time in the future, but wanted to be sure that I could tell people that my sources were not exJWs. I don't have much of a problem with that now.
As to reading or seaching non-cannonical books, I've only read certain quotes, except for the 1 & 2 Maccabees. There is also quite a bit of commentary out there on the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran era that I spent more than a little time on. It is quite revealing to know that there is considerable writings from non-cannonical books found there. They shed light on some things that you won't find in just the scriptures we're familiar with.
All of this is quite a process, but it has helped me quite a bit to reconcile disputed understandings.
-
14
Dating the writing of a Bible book
by stirred but not shaken inwhile doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.
society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.
the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
While doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the Wt. Society was in error, I was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s CE. The reasoning that is used in the publications varies. By just using the logic as to when the book of Jude was written, the "All Scripture.." and the "Insight" book suggest it was the year 65 CE because ..."Jude does not mention Cestius Gallus' moving in to put down the Jews' revolt in 66 CE nor does he mention the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. (italics mine)
This didn't mean much to me at the time (several times) of reviewing this book during the TMS. As mentioned, over the last several years, my study and research lead me to a lot of alternatives. One of which is that all writings were completed before 70 CE including the last book, Revelation. None of the writings include any information regarding the worst destrucion of Jerusalem ever recorded in history. There is no Christian book of Lamentations. Not any of John's writings (96-98 CE) discuss it. This suggests that it hadn't happened and his writings would have been previous to the year 70. Of course this changes the popular prophetic explanation of many religious groups, not just JWs. I'm aware of the Pretarist view and they fall into more than one category, and I avoid being called an "ist" of anything, because I don't think the "jury" is completely out on many of things we have yet to get a full grasp on. But I can say for myself, that it answers more questions than not. Reading the Bible, especially the Christian scriptures, is much more focused, makes more sense, and explains why groups such as JWs are constantly adjusting their timelines.
I know there are several on this board that have commented (quite articulately) in this regard. That point about Jude's writing time is just another good hint. Your thoughts!?
-
34
Feeling disloyal
by stirred but not shaken ini've been visiting here for about a year or so, but didn't really feel compelled to participate other than reading the various posts that interested me.. there's been that uncomfortable feeling of being disloyal to god, the organization, many friends and relatives.. i've been associated since birth.
after 65 + years of service within this organization and actually enjoying that time, it troubled me to find myself wanting to express feelings that were contrary to all that time of "faithfulness".
those years were filled with progressive "privileges and responsibilities" even at a high level, and there was considerable success in our evangelizing activity.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
Very nice responses. We need to know that others identify. I have to remember how I would have reacted if someone I knew well left the fold. Actually I did know a few and I felt betrayed then disgusted and then felt pity. It's part of the structure, but it becomes incredible once you've been released or figured out the flawed concepts. I never really knew what the reasons were for those that left over the years, and I don't feel inclined to find them to ask them. Some were a bit on the emotional side, others were sort of full of themselves, but there was one or two that really had it together that surprised me.
I came upon these discoveries rather innocently. Researching the scriptures and their historical background was enlightening and fun. Particularly the period between the last book in the OT and the book of Matthew. This would include the Maccabees and Hasmonean dynasty, the Qumran era and the forming of the sects of the Pharasees, Sadducees, the Essenes along with the militant faction of loyalists. The culture of that time was exposed to all of that, and that was Jesus' audience, not the leftovers from the days of the later prophets like Malachai. After the Maccabean era, the Herods appointed the High Priests, which would indicate that something besides the holy priesthood, initiated even after Ezra's time, had severely changed.
Incidently, my user name, besides being a James Bond classic expression, is a play on words for the situation I now find myself in. But thanks for the lesson in the making of a good "gin" martini. I love 'em but can't handle but maybe two in one sitting.
-
34
Feeling disloyal
by stirred but not shaken ini've been visiting here for about a year or so, but didn't really feel compelled to participate other than reading the various posts that interested me.. there's been that uncomfortable feeling of being disloyal to god, the organization, many friends and relatives.. i've been associated since birth.
after 65 + years of service within this organization and actually enjoying that time, it troubled me to find myself wanting to express feelings that were contrary to all that time of "faithfulness".
those years were filled with progressive "privileges and responsibilities" even at a high level, and there was considerable success in our evangelizing activity.
-
-
stirred but not shaken
Well Hello,
I've been visiting here for about a year or so, but didn't really feel compelled to participate other than reading the various posts that interested me.
There's been that uncomfortable feeling of being disloyal to God, the organization, many friends and relatives.
I've been associated since birth. After 65 + years of service within this organization and actually enjoying that time, it troubled me to find myself wanting to express feelings that were contrary to all that time of "faithfulness". Those years were filled with progressive "privileges and responsibilities" even at a high level, and there was considerable success in our evangelizing activity. We were in the "inner circle" so to speak. Virtually all my relatives were heavily involved and several can be found in some special activity. I knew nothing else, and was content and happy for having the truth. We literally came to know hundreds of people from the U.S. and other countries. Perhaps some of you are here.
I stumbled on to this site while doing some research. Unaware of the "TTATT" as it's referred to here, something didn't seem right, or rather there must be a more comprehendable understanding to some of the difficult teachings. An explanation that one wouldn't be embarrassed or retisent to express. I began to lack confidence that the understandings were coming from God, and if they were, they weren't satisfying. A troubling feeling. However, who was I to try to come up with something more suitable. Eventually I found myself discussing some things with trusted, level headed and open minded fellow worshippers. No trouble makers here. Sincere, devout, educated (with pedigrees in Service privileges) and most of all desiring a good or perhaps better relationship with God and his Son. This all began to occur sometime after we had studied the "Daniel Prophecy" book and shortly thereafter the "Revelation Climax" book.
There were these incomprehensible explanations of the days in Daniel (not just the 1260) that concluded or were fulfilled in the 1920s and the trumpet blasts that were likewise fulfilled in the past century with some Resolution or convention date. I tried explaning that to some interested folks during that time, but kept it vague so they wouldn't stop with the program. But I thought why..why should this not be just so plain? I continued on however, buying into the "wait on Jehovah" and he will reveal it when it's the right time.
Somewhere along the way we came to discussing the 70 years in Daniel, and to make a long story short, that did it. 607 couldn't be correct. It just isn't supported in scripture or history. This, of course, leaves the leadership of this organization suspect.
Things started to pile up, and my confidence in what I had learned in those 65+ years was now quickly eroding. I needed to take a break from the expected activity, and proceed with filling in the blanks. It' taken years and many volumes of well established commentaries, to give me confidence that there's a better understanding out there, but not one so exact that one has to be arbitrary. There's a lot more to learn.
Fortunately, my wife and a few other family members, saw and accepted it on there own. It certainly has caused some problems, however.
In the overall, we're not bitter or resentful. I don't find that productive nor comforting.
We've lost the intimacy of many of our friends and family. I guess we expected that. Being viewed as weak and corrupted is a hard pill to swallow.
While visiting here, I've read some really good posts and they have helped confirm our decision. Hopefully we'll be able to add some insights along the way.
-
-
-
stirred but not shaken
I must be dense. So...I logged on clicked on my user name and clicked on "send message" to start my intro. Apparently the message went from me to me, as it didn't appear on the forum. Not too savvy about this sort of thing. What should I click on to post the message?
-
-
-
stirred but not shaken
Havn't been able to post . How do I do it?